032. Overcome Impostor Syndrome in the Workplace

In this episode of the Delight in the Limelight podcast, host Linda Ugelow is joined by Kim Meninger, a leadership coach and host of The Impostor Syndrome Files podcast to discuss the phenomenon known as Impostor Syndrome and how it affects individuals in the workplace.

They discuss the definition of Impostor Syndrome, misconceptions, and provide insight into its root causes and the impact it has on self-perception and performance.

Listeners will gain insights into recognizing and overcoming Impostor Syndrome to cultivate confidence and success in their careers.

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Delight in the Limelight

032. Overcome Impostor Syndrome in the Workplace

032. Overcome Impostor Syndrome in the Workplace

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        Transcript

      Linda Ugelow: Welcome to the Delight in the Limelight podcast. I'm your host, Linda Ugelow, speaking confidence coach and author of the book Delight in the Limelight. I'm here to take you on a journey from the dread of public speaking to loving it instead. Before we get into the great episode I have for you today, I want to make sure you have my free checklist of speaking preparation rituals, because getting ready to speak is more than practicing what you're going to say. It's about putting yourself into a state of body and mind to channel your best self. This free checklist includes the practices I use and recommend before speaking to ensure I'm clear headed, grounded, warmed up, and focused. Download it@lindaugelow.com/rituals. Okay, let's get on to the episode.

      Linda Ugelow: Today we're talking about Impostor Syndrome, that nagging feeling of self doubt. And here to help me unpack that is Kim Meninger. Kim Meninger is a leadership coach, TEDx speaker, and host of The Impostor Syndrome Files podcast. She believes that everyone deserves a seat at the table and that an authentic commitment to inclusion and psychological safety is the key to long term corporate success. So we want to make it safe to be vulnerable and to get the support we need. That's her mission. Welcome, Kim.

      Kim Meninger: Thank you so much, Linda. It's such a pleasure to be here.

      Linda Ugelow: I know we meet once again. It's so fun. I think the first time we met was on a panel discussion about Impostor Syndrome.

      Kim Meninger: That's right.

      Linda Ugelow: It was in Boston. Yes. And then I was on your podcast, The Imposter Syndrome Files, which is wonderful, and you talk about this topic all day long. So let's get into it. Let's start with defining it, because are there misconceptions? I mean, people have heard the term. It may not be clear exactly what it is and what it isn't.

      Kim Meninger: Yeah.

      Linda Ugelow: Can you start us off?

      Kim Meninger: Sure. So Impostor Syndrome really is a term used to describe those feelings of inadequacy self doubt like you're describing it despite evidence to the contrary. So on paper, I'm doing really well. I'm achieving my goals. I'm getting great feedback. But inside there's this disconnect, and I feel like it's only a matter of time before people figure out I'm a fraud. I don't actually belong here. I don't actually know what I'm doing.

      Linda Ugelow: Yeah. And I know you've spoken a lot about how that's something that you struggled with for a long time. And I know I did, too. I remember sometimes people, like, for 40 years, I performed with a singing group, and people would say, oh, you have all this experience singing. You're such a great singer. And I'm thinking, oh, my God, if they only knew how uncomfortable I was singing in public. And it's like that feeling of people have. They think you're one way, and you think you're another way, and it's so uncomfortable. It made me so squirmy.

      Kim Meninger: Well, I think that's part of the challenge, too. Is that we are looking around and we're seeing everybody's brave face, everybody's sort of curated self online and in the real world. And we think everyone else has it all figured out. There must be something wrong with me. We don't get to see the messy behind the scenes of everyone else's self doubts, everyone else's insecurities. And so we think that we're the only ones who feel this way.

      Linda Ugelow: Yeah. So one of the things I want to kind of clarify here, it's one thing to feel like you're new at something. You can feel new at something and have beginner mindset or just kind of be open and curious and not have that feeling of impostor syndrome. Is that correct?

      Kim Meninger: That's right. Yeah. I think that really if you can separate the emotional part of your brain that goes into panic mode when you're faced with a situation that's uncomfortable to you and the more rational side of your brain that acknowledges, of course, I don't know this yet, I'm new at this. Right. I do have information that I need to learn, I do have skills I need to develop. There's the difference. 

      I think that the sort of fight or flight part of our brain that tells us you're going to fail, you're a fraud, is the part that's most disruptive because we can't really work with that. It's just this overwhelming sense of dread that something terrible is going to happen as opposed to a more reasoned yeah, there's a learning curve here and there are steps I can take to improve and get better.

      Linda Ugelow: Yeah. And I think what distinguishes this experience is that it's really not about what's going on in the present. It's a lot about what happened in the past and the original causes. And I actually just relistened to the podcast that we did together, which was a few years ago and it was interesting because I have more information now and experience with clients and I'm sure you do too. Let's dive in a little bit to what some of the causes might be because I think this is really key for people to recognize that there's a reason why they feel this way. It's not random.

      Kim Meninger: That's right. And so a lot of it is rooted in messaging that we got when we were children from our parents, our primary caregivers around success and failure. And so there is the classic example of the child who comes home with all A's and one B and the parents say, what's that B doing there? Right. And the child internalizes this belief that perfection is the expectation and that unless they are perfect, their parents aren't going to love them as much or something bad is going to happen. And then you've got people on the other side of the spectrum whose parents praise every little thing that they do and they expect to be able to go out into the world and just do everything naturally. Everything should come easily. 

      And when it doesn't, it's hard to reconcile that disconnect between the feedback we're getting from our parents and the feedback that we're getting from maybe teachers or coaches in the real world. And so it develops these seeds that then bloom over time right. And start to interfere in other situations.

      Linda Ugelow: Yeah, I want to just jump in there because to make it really clear what goes on. Like if you feel like you've been told you're really talented, you're so smart, you're really fast, you understand things, and then you're put into a situation where you don't. Then you can begin to question, oh, my God, I thought I was so great. But maybe I'm not as great as I thought I was. Or I'm not as great as my parents told me I was.

      Kim Meninger: There's almost an identity crisis there. Right. It's like a smart kid. Who am I, right? Everybody's calling me the smart kid, and now I'm suddenly facing a challenge. What does that mean about all of my experience so far?

      Linda Ugelow: Right. And then, conversely, the first point that you brought up of having the overly critical parent that maybe there's nothing you could ever do to be good enough. And so you grow up feeling like, I'm just not good enough. I'm never good enough. And so you carry that kind of burden and self labeling into the workplace. And so no matter how many people say, oh, this is terrific, you think inside, well, I'm really not good enough, because you were never good enough for that person, for that original attachment parent that you were attached to. 

      Now, one thing that I've had new experience with are clients who have come to me, who have had experiences as kids or maybe even later on. I had one client who had applied to be in a special program for gifted kids and didn't make it, but then their parents pulled some strings and they got in.

      Linda Ugelow: And then when they were in there, they had kids say to them, well, you're not supposed to be here. Your parents got you in here. And now that's how they feel. Like every place they go, they feel, oh, I wasn't supposed to be here. Or there's a woman who I'm going to be interviewing, tricia Montalvo Trim, who got placement because of affirmative action and had the same kind of peer criticism. So that is being told you're not supposed to be here. Like, if it wasn't for that, you wouldn't be here.

      Kim Meninger: Yeah. Which is so interesting.

      Linda Ugelow: Harsh.

      Kim Meninger: It is. And it's also, if you think about it, the reality of the world that we live in, the myth of the meritocracy, right, is very powerful. We assume that the people who are in positions of power are there because they earned it, because they deserve it in some way. Whereas if you look at generations of legacy students from Ivy League schools who are there because they have parents and grandparents who have gone mean. 

      I think that if we let ourselves internalize those messages of you didn't earn this, then we're dismissing generations of people who have gotten in because of their networks, because just various connection points being in the right place at the right time. That's kind of how the system works. It's not all about our hard work and our effort. And so I think we need to expand our belief system about what success looks like and how we arrive at our various destinations.

      Linda Ugelow: Yes, absolutely. And I think that's a perfect recognition of the broader scope of things that it is. A lot about connections, I mean, even today we talk about how important connections are. So it's a conglomeration of all these things. That's right, it's a conglomeration. That's right. And we shouldn't discount our own connections and other people are using theirs. Why shouldn't we use everything that is available for us? That's absolutely true.

      Linda Ugelow: So I guess what I want to point out to people is that this may I mean, it's not like this is normal to feel this way, but there's a reason for it and it's natural to feel this way. It makes perfect sense that we feel this way when we've had experiences like these or others. And I'd be really curious if anyone is listening to this and they have a different experience of what they think may have contributed to their feeling of not supposed to be the inadequacy that you speak about or not supposed to be where they have arrived at to broaden it. 

      So please share your thoughts and comments as you listen to this. Do you think that people are suffering with this ongoingly or do you think that it comes up at certain times? Is it something that gets triggered under certain circumstances? Talk about that unpack? That for us.

      Kim Meninger: And I think that's a really important part of the self awareness process that we need in order to better manage this experience. Because I think sometimes when we're in the moment, it feels like a pervasive set of feelings and beliefs when in actuality impostor syndrome is very episodic. It is very much triggered by certain situations. And one of the things that I often recommend is that people pay attention to what is happening in the moment when you feel like an imposter internally and externally. So oftentimes it's our own belief system rooted in our upbringing as we talked about, but also it's a lack of psychological safety in the workplace. 

      I'm not going to feel as confident speaking up in the room if I've watched other people get their hand slapped for challenging the status quo or asking a question. And so of course I'm going to internalize some self doubt. So pay attention to what are those triggers? Is it certain personality types? Is it certain moments when you don't feel prepared about the topic at hand? And then just as importantly, I should say is to pay attention to the moments when you don't feel like an imposter, what's going on, when you feel confident and strong and what can you learn about those situations and maybe try to recreate those conditions in other situations where you're more prone to self doubt?

      Linda Ugelow: Yeah. That's so parallel to the recommendations I make for feeling confident when you speak. Because there are places where people do feel confident and become more self aware of those and also indulge yourself in those areas where you feel really free and self expressive and notice what is it that you're feeling? And then see how you might be able to transfer those experiences. 

      But to get back to what you're talking about with the triggers, I think that one of the areas that and it just occurred to me as you were speaking about this, because a lot of times, people who may feel imposter syndrome may also have a fear of expressing themselves, period, for other reasons of conditioning that they may have had in school or from parents or whatever that go beyond this type of circumstance of feeling inadequate. So it makes it even more confusing for them to think about what is going on here? Why am I so afraid? Because it gets joined together. And when you were talking about what's going on in that experience, I think I was just working with a client who felt like really prepared to give a presentation, and it was to a group of other companies. And he thought it was going to be a very informal situation. And it turned out everyone was in suit and tie.

      They were at this big oval table, and he got triggered and his voice started to shake. And as soon as his voice started to shake, he thought, oh man, I'm going downhill, I'm sinking. They're going to know I'm nervous, and what a terrible way I'm representing my company and everyone's going to dismiss my company now. Everyone's going to think that we're no good because my voice is shaking. 

      So there are things that people can do to manage it, but I like to go back to the root causes and heal those root causes. So one of the ways that I suggested to him to think about this is like, what did that remind you of? All those suits and ties? And he was like, oh, well, it was like school. We were so formal in school and being tested and being put on the spot. And so you can take what it is when you become more self aware about what's going on in those times, it gets triggered.

      Linda Ugelow: Like, what does that remind you of? Where did you feel like that earlier on? Because that can guide you to revealing what it is that's the root cause. So once that's revealed to you, then you have the possibility of resolving it or clearing it away. But unless you know what it is, you're kind of like, stuck with dragging it around with you.

      Kim Meninger: Well, I think that a lot because I often talk about the fact that if you're a child and you touch a hot stove, you will never touch that stove again. And I think in our lives, we're building this database on an ongoing basis of potential hot stoves. And we're trying really hard to avoid touching anything that might hurt us. And so for some of us, we have a lot of fake stoves, a lot of things out there that we think are potential hot stoves that really aren't dangerous. They really aren't as threatening as we think they are. But we have accumulated again, this sort of database of this is a dangerous place for me. And like you said, if we aren't able to examine where that comes from and to reframe the situations that we're coming into, we're just going to use the same habits and the same beliefs that we developed as children in very vulnerable, very powerless situations to manage them as adults. And it's just not the same playing anymore.

      Linda Ugelow: Right. It's not the same. So, yeah, that's why I like to go back there. Let's clear those things up. Let's resolve them so you can bring yourself into the present, because the present is where we are powerful. Let's talk about strategies.

      Kim Meninger: So the first strategy that I think about is to simply know that what is going on is often your fight or flight response. And you brought up the man whose voice started to shake. I hear this all the time from people who say, I don't know what happens to me. It's like I get into the room and I can't form a coherent thought. What they don't realize is that that's the fight or flight response kicking in. And if they don't know that, it reinforces their belief that they really aren't capable of performing in this way. And so they think, see, I knew I didn't have what it takes to be part of this conversation or to be in this role. And so to recognize your own fight or flight response and to your point, be able to intervene in some way, take a breath, manage it to get back to neutral, don't assume that that's a function of losing IQ points or lack of preparation.

      Kim Meninger: It's really just a human response to a perceived threat.

      Linda Ugelow: Right. And so what other strategies do you recommend to people to maybe that's in the moment, but how can people kind of prepare themselves ahead of time?

      Kim Meninger: Yeah. So for me, I spoke in a TEDx Talk last year about this idea of really understanding what your role is to play in a system. Because I used to work part of my own experience with Imposter Syndrome is I was a relationship manager on a team full of very technical people in the high tech world. And I was constantly comparing myself to the engineers and the product managers who knew a language I didn't speak and thinking, I need to know exactly what they know in order to effectively do my job. Instead, where I finally came to was a realization that that wasn't why I was in the room, that they weren't inviting me to compete with Bob from Engineering, who had all this experience that not only did I not have but didn't want. And as soon as I could shift my focus back to what is my piece of the puzzle, I don't have to know everything. I don't need to do everything myself. I just need to be part of a system that is collaborative that took so much of the pressure off of me and allowed me to not be so competitive with the people around me.

      Linda Ugelow: Yeah, I like what you say about what you have to bring because I think that a lot of people don't realize that even being an outside pair of eyes or outside pair of ears is valuable. Because a lot of times people on the inside only see what they see on the inside and they don't know how it impacts other people. So I think someone who, let's say, is a product manager or is visiting from another team or something can bring something very valuable because they are looking at the situation or the product or the service or whatever it is with another pair of eyes that is missing from the people in the room.

      Kim Meninger: Exactly.

      Linda Ugelow: Yeah. So that's extremely valuable. I'd like people to ultimately feel like they really honor and accept who they are, not need to pretend to be different than who they are or to pretend they know something that they don't know. What do you say about how much knowledge people have?

      Kim Meninger: Yeah, so this one, I think, is a really important piece of the puzzle because I think too often we're told prepare, just prepare and you'll be more confident. And prepare often translates to perfectionism in the minds of people who are achievers. And that puts pressure on them to constantly know other things that they don't need to know. And so from my perspective, it's much more so about being strategic, about knowing your own strengths and where you want to make a contribution. Here's the thing, right? As humans, we will always dismiss what makes us special. We take it for granted. We don't see it as a big deal. We look around, we see other people's strengths and think, I could never do that.

      That person's so impressive. I don't have anything to offer to really try to flip that script and look at it as what do I uniquely bring to this conversation, to this group, whatever it might be, and to think about it in terms of what wouldn't get done if you weren't there. Right. What do people come to you for? What are the questions people are repeatedly asking you so that you can get a sense of how other people perceive you and your strengths and to really focus that on that instead of how you measure up or don't measure up in your own mind to the people around you.

      Linda Ugelow: Yeah, I think that's really good point. And still I know that some people find it hard to know what they are good at. And what it brings up for me is the importance of I know you think and talk a lot about psychological safety. And one of the elements that I feel goes into psychological safety is letting people know their value. So even as someone who comes in, if you're not sure what you can quote, unquote, contribute in terms of content, what you can contribute is positive feedback and reflections on what other people are doing because everyone wants and needs to know what they are doing, what they're saying that feels valuable, that's resonating, that feels strong. 

      So if you come in you say, I really like that idea, I haven't heard that before, or I love how you organized these points, that was really helpful. So even if you come in as someone who is a positive reflector to other people, that can be very valuable for people and that creates more of a safe environment for them, but also for you too, because as people feel that themselves, they want to return the favor.

      Kim Meninger: Yes, and I think a lot of what you're talking about is building trust and connection within your teams and within your workplaces. And so many of us are being triggered without realizing it. And because we're feeling this sense of competition, we see everybody around us as a potential threat. And so to be able to bring that threat level down by showing recognition, by mirroring back people, I think just makes everybody feel safer.

      Linda Ugelow: Yeah. So some companies have it part of their mission to create psychological safety. Other companies are more steeped in competition. How do you help people navigate those different company cultures?

      Kim Meninger: I think part of it is demystifying it. And there are lots of misconceptions about psychological safety, that if we prioritize psychological safety, then everybody's going to have to be nice to each other and we're going to have to tiptoe around each other, which is quite the opposite. I think helping people understand that psychological safety is not going to take away from their mission, it's actually going to enhance their mission. And unfortunately, what's difficult is you can't measure the absence of something. 

      So if we think we're doing well right now, we don't realize how much better we could be doing if only we were creating more safety for the people around us. So really sort of creating a space where people can practice this and demonstrate the power of psychological safety. It's not a distraction, it's a catalyst to business results.

      Linda Ugelow: And so what would you say are the top three elements of creating psychological safety in the workplace?

      Kim Meninger: I think oftentimes we think that it needs to come from the top, which of course, culture needs to be monitored and influenced by the top. But I think every one of us has a role to play. And so my recommendation would be to pay attention to the group interactions that you're in on a daily basis and look for opportunities to bring more voices into the conversation. If the conversation is not structured in such a way as you invite introverts or people who like to process information, you're losing a lot. There's a lot of people second guessing themselves. So be the person that invites people who says, Time out. We've only heard from three people. Anybody else have something that they want to share? Right.

      Know that your insecurities are very similar to other people's insecurities. What would help you to feel more confident? What would help you to feel more prepared and try to provide those resources to other people. So if someone's new on the team, flood them with support up front because they're not going to ask for help. They're too afraid to reveal what they don't know. Give them agendas ahead of the meeting so they can plan, so they know what they're walking into. And make it okay to fail. Right. We make mistakes.

      And the thing is, we make more mistakes when it's not okay to fail because we're that much more self conscious and anxious about it. So humans are not perfect. Acknowledge that, learn from it, and move on.

      Linda Ugelow: How do you make it okay to fail?

      Kim Meninger: Talk about your own failures. Tell people what did wrong, the mistakes you've made, and invite other people to share. I actually worked with a group recently who decided to normalize this in monthly meetings to go around the room and say, here's a mistake I made and what I learned from it. Now we all get to learn from it.

      Linda Ugelow: That's brilliant. That's brilliant. And what a great thing to that's a real gift to provide. Yeah. So before we close up, if you were going to, say, offer three tips to help someone with their impostor syndrome, what would your top tips be?

      Kim Meninger: My top tips would be know your triggers. Right. Like we talked about, so that you can anticipate and manage them. Know your strengths so you understand what you're there to do and how you can be of greatest value to your own environment and help others. Be a source of psychological safety for others. Because we are never more confident than when we feel like we're helping the people around us.

      Linda Ugelow: Yeah, that's beautiful. Even just hearing you say that, I feel like my heart open up. So one of the things that I think about a lot is how to be authentically ourselves. And I'm wondering what you think about being authentically yourself. What does that mean to you?

      Kim Meninger: I think it starts with knowing who you want to be, because so often we don't even realize that we're trying to conform to a model that may or may not feel right for us. And so it starts with reflection on how do I want people to experience me? What do I want people to say about me when I'm not in the room? And then to really hold on to that, especially in moments of stress and uncertainty, because I think it's really helpful to be able to say, I'm somebody who really values inclusion. So in this moment, even if I'm feeling really nervous about it, I'm going to choose the path that aligns with that value.

      Linda Ugelow: Nice. Beautiful. Well, Kim, how can people learn more about you and maybe work with you or get more of your thank you so much. Wonderful energy.

      Kim Meninger: Well, my website is yourcareersuccess.com, and I have links to various resources there. And then I'm most active on LinkedIn, and I'm always excited to welcome new people into my network, so I'd love to connect with anybody who's interested in joining me there.

      Linda Ugelow: Oh, this has been so wonderful. Thank you. Thank you so much. I just love talking to you about this topic, and I know that so many people will have been helped by all these things that we got to cover today. Thank you for listening to Delight in the Limelight. I hope you feel a little more hopeful and excited about speaking in public. If you like this show, recommend it to someone you know. And if you have haven't yet read the book Delight in the Limelight.

      You can get it online or at your favorite bookstore or request it from your local library. Remember, speaking is our human design. Let's learn to delight in it together.

      Timestamps

      1:43 The definition and misconception of Imposter Syndrome
      3:38 The difference between being new at something and the Imposter Syndrome
      4:45 The root causes of Imposter Syndrome
      10:04 What triggers Impostor Sydrome and what to do when you’re triggered7
      16:21 Strategies for dealing with the Impostor Sydrome
      19:44 The hazards of preparation
      20:56 Building psychological safety
      25:07 How to make it okay to fail
      25:26 Top three tips for overcoming impostor Syndrome

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      Linda Ugelow

      Linda Ugelow

      Author, speaker, podcast host, and speaking confidence coach.

      Helping business owners, authors, and corporate leaders to go from dread to delight in the limelight!

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