056. Bridging the Divide: Courageous Conversations in Polarized Times

Linda Ugelow:

Welcome to the Delight in the Limelight podcast. I'm your host, Linda Ugelow, speaking confidence coach and author of the book Delight in the Limelight. I'm here to take you on a journey from the dread of public speaking to loving it instead. Before we get into the great episode I have for you today, I want to make sure you have my free checklist of speaking preparation rituals. Because getting ready to speak is more than practicing what you're going to say. It's about putting yourself into a state of body and mind to channel your best self. This free checklist includes the practices I use and recommend before speaking to ensure I'm clear headed, grounded, warmed up and focused. Download it at lindau.com rituals okay, let's get on to the episode.

Linda Ugelow:

This is all about how to have civil conversations in hot political times. And we all know how difficult it is to have these conversations about politics. It's tense, it's uncomfortable, we feel unsafe when opinions clash. And the easiest thing is to either not say anything or to stick with people who share our views or to like pop onto social media and throw something out and, and then run away. But I don't know if these, these strategies are really serving us the best. I don't want us to avoid, I don't want us to be unthoughtful. I want us to really think through how can we best have conversations so we can bring ourselves together, how we can feel like we're bridging the divide rather than feeding the divide. Now, maybe you consider yourself tolerant and respectful of others, but this is one place where you feel like you're struggling with these hot button issues and you like to take your communication skills to the next level.

Linda Ugelow:

Well, this is what the show is about. Both of my guests today, Liane Davey and Heather Hansen, have been on the show before. Thank you so much for coming back. I am so grateful for them to join me again to explore what is possible and what we can bring to this topic and experience. So I'm here to learn. I hope you are too. Liane, let me just say, is the author of the Good Fight and she brings vast experience in helping teams master the art of argument. How do you like that? I like Art of argument.

Linda Ugelow:

And Heather Hansen is an award winning litigator, author of Advocate to Win and the Elegant Water Warrior. And she also has a really unique way of looking at the inner jury that I hope that she will gift us in and how it can help us in these conversations as well. So welcome Liane. Welcome, Heather.

Heather Hansen:

Thank you to be here.

Linda Ugelow:

Yeah. And just one more thing that I want to say if you're listening in on the show is that my intention is that by at the end of the show that we will come up with some strategies and structures for you to maybe get excited about an eager to try to create some courageous conversation before the US elections. So that is my challenge to you and it's also my challenge to me. So, Heather and Liane, I don't want to speak for you, but I'm just hoping that we can, for each of ourselves and for everyone listening, we can see how we can bring some new, I don't know, infuse this whole idea of civil conversations with some new energy and insight and hope. So, yeah. So we've got a couple of people watching and please feel free to, you know, put a comment in and I will hopefully remember, Shay Linea says this conversation is so timely for me. Yes. You and millions of others.

Linda Ugelow:

So I'm glad. But you are here, Shay, so kudos to you. So one of the things I want to start off with, just before we got on the show, we're talking about, well, what do we want to bring to this conversation? And, you know, what's our, like, mantra or some thoughts? And we were throwing some things out and all of a sudden I realized this is one of the things that we can do when we start a conversation, any conversation is like, how do we want to feel? And do you want. Let's, let's just start there. I'm going to start. Stop talking for a second.

Heather Hansen:

Liane, you want to start?

Liane Davey:

Sure, I'll go first. So, you know, as I think about this kind of conversation, I always think about how difficult and uncomfortable conversations tend to for me get like my heart in my throat and my pulse racing and, yeah, that kind of fight or flight kind of response. And I would love to just even have this conversation today about how we have those kind of conversations with some oxygen in my lungs, with some air in the room to say, we probably need to have these conversations a little more slowly so there's time to think and not just react. And so, yeah, that's kind of what I'm thinking about right now, is how do I engage in this hard conversation with oxygen.

Heather Hansen:

I love that because it's so true that you lose your breath when you start to feel threatened or wrong or fearful. And I think that so much of this conversation, the thing that makes it hard is the fear. I would like to trade that fear for wonder. I wonder where they came to this conclusion. I wonder what happened in their life that made them think this way. I wonder what evidence they have to support this argument or this position. And I think that I like wonder. It goes beyond curiosity.

Heather Hansen:

Curiosity is one of my favorites. But wonder is even a little bit more open, a little bit more slow, and a little bit more patient. And I think that with these conversations, if we can approach them with wonder, it really changes just the energy of the conversation.

Linda Ugelow:

Ah, breath and wonder. I will add presence and open heart, open heartedness. I feel that when I, when I was back in my twenties, I traveled around the world by myself solo. This was in 79. And I had a mantra, open my heart, open my heart, open my heart, whenever I felt afraid. So something about like, staying present and grounded in my body and, and maintaining a sense of, of ease and openness. So I know that in conversations I can get tense, I can feel my blood pressure rise. And this is a way of keeping track.

Linda Ugelow:

Yeah. Yeah. Okay, wonderful. So. So, okay, let's start with like. So is there a benefit? Should we be having more conversations? Do you think that, is this a good thing for us to, like, try to talk with people who have different views? Is it worth us to cross the divide?

Heather Hansen:

I think so. I mean, I think, I think it's imperative I come at it from a different perspective. And when we decided we were going to have this conversation, it reminded me of this. I do television legal analysis, and I do it for all the channels. I'm an equal opportunity talking head. So I have done it for MSNBC and CNN and the Today show and Dr. Phil and Dr. Oz and Fox News and Fox Business.

Heather Hansen:

And so I really have. I think that has really grown my ability to see different perspectives. And one of the favorite things that I did was on MSNBC a few years ago now they had a segment on their digital platform, not the TV platform, where they had me and another analyst take a position and then halfway through switch positions. And you know, you do that in debate class, if anyone's ever done debate. But I do think that doing that reminded me that there's an argument on either side. And if you're assigned the argument, you start to learn the other side. And by doing so, even if you don't agree with it, you can maybe understand it. And so I do think these conversations are helpful if we're open to start to understand other people and maybe have more of a sense that their intention isn't bad.

Heather Hansen:

It's just that they have a different way of getting to where they want.

Liane Davey:

To go, yeah, yeah, I can't disagree here. I normally find these things are more interesting when we disagree with one another, but we'll start agreeing. Because one of the things I do most of my work with, teams intact, teams in the workplace, and one of the lines I've come to is you get the team you deserve. And so the people who are willing to put in the hard work to bridge the divide on their teams, to understand people who have different personalities or styles or roles or anything else, they get these teams that harness the value of diversity, feel like you have each other's backs and they kind of get the team they deserve. Then I see teams where people are passive aggressive, they can't be bothered investing, and then they come to me saying they have a terrible team. I'm like, sounds like that's the team you deserve. So if we take that same concept and apply it to communities, these are the communities we live in. Is it a situation where you want to live in a community where your neighbor has your back, where you together can support and vote for and elect people who move things forward in ways that you care about? If you want those things, if you care about your community, then you get the community you deserve.

Liane Davey:

And if you start to hive it into, create this chasm in your community, that's exactly what you're going to be left with. So, you know, I want to live in a wonderful community that is welcoming and creates space for everybody. And, you know, I think I'm. It will, I'm sure, come out at some point. How? I'm Canadian, I'm very left leaning, but I see a lot of people on the left not wanting to include other people in their community. I'm like, this is so hypocritical. So, you know, if. If we want these kinds of communities we deserve to live in, we better be having these conversations.

Linda Ugelow:

Yeah, Yeah. I, I kind of come at it from, like, my speaking confidence area. And I realize that here I am helping people feel more comfortable, confident speaking. I'm not confident and comfortable speaking in these ways. And, and that's basically why I brought you guys on, because I wanted to move it forward. Heather, what do you have to say there?

Heather Hansen:

What are you. What's the fear?

Linda Ugelow:

Well. Oh, gosh, am I ready to be coached right now? I feel that I will lose friendships, that people will shun me without waiting to hear why I feel the way I do. I am afraid that people will be afraid that I'm judging them. I. I certainly won't bring it. Let's Say onto Facebook or anything, because I don't want to. Like, I don't want people to decide to work with me or not, depending on my. My politics.

Linda Ugelow:

But I do feel like it's still worth. Like, I do want to be able to do it with people who I've. I've, you know, spent a lot of years with or family members.

Heather Hansen:

Yeah.

Liane Davey:

I also love just even in how you're stating it at first, you're talking about, you know, confidence is your business. Right. And confidence on the stage is your business, but you don't feel confident in these conversations. To a certain extent. I think that vulnerability is part of the secret of moving forward. We need to move forward in the vulnerability. So, you know, when you have people who. There is a big chasm between you and one of them is very confident, it creates distance.

Liane Davey:

It doesn't close distance. So I would encourage you have the conversations from that place of vulnerability, from uncertainty channel that be explicit about that, and that may create greater openness than if you went in with all this. Like, I know perfectly how to have this conversation that can really, you know, push people further away. So don't be afraid of vulnerability and discomfort. Those are things that serve you well in a place where there might not be a lot of trust to start with.

Heather Hansen:

Yeah, I couldn't agree with that more. I think that if you say this conversation is uncomfortable with. For me and reaffirm the relationship, especially with your close people. I love you very much. I want to feel understood as much as possible and to understand you as much as possible as we have this conversation. I think that that can set a good foundation for the conversations.

Linda Ugelow:

Yeah. Yeah. And something that we. We just touched upon briefly before we hopped on was that we're not talking here about persuading people or moving people to change their opinion. It's about how can we feel more connected with people and accepting and compassionate and respectful and so not attached to. To, you know, like, for me, knowing that I don't have to be attached to any kind of change other than our willingness to share our stories.

Liane Davey:

Well, in 2024, that would be a huge change. Right. To feel invested in. You know, I don't need an election to go a certain way or I don't need the UN to vote. Like, but I do need the people who are around me to feel more understood by me than they. Than they do right now. That is a massive change and probably one of the most valuable. The.

Liane Davey:

The hot button topics are going to come and go. But that sense that we can stay at least connected. So I don't have to agree with you. My goal is not to agree with you, but my goal goal is to feel that we at least understand each other.

Linda Ugelow:

Right.

Heather Hansen:

And I love Liane that you just said to have the people around me feel understood. I think we often come into these conversations wanting to be understood, but not wanting to understand or to help other people to feel understood. And so I do think that if we go into conversations thinking I need to be understood, it's not going to go as well as if we go into those conversations thinking I want to understand Marianne Williamson, who happens to have been a political candidate, but I've read all of her books before she ever even went into politics. And she had a line in one of her books that said, we think that we need to understand people in order to love them, but the truth is that we need to love them so that we can understand them. And I think that if we lead with that, right, like, I love this person now, let me work to understand them, it definitely gets us there in a very different way than I have to understand them for them to earn my love.

Liane Davey:

And that reverse, it plays out in so many ways. So with my psychology background, I'll say we often think we have to believe something to then act a certain way. And, of course, cognitive dissonance, all of the psychology research teaches us we can behave a certain way, and then we will come to believe something that's in accord with that. So, you know, much of the advice that we'll be talking about is probably about how can I behave a certain way even before I believe it? So behave it, be it, and then believe it. So you can actually, just like Heather's point about, you know, which way love and understanding goes, so too, action and intent can go in the opposite direction to the direction we think they do.

Heather Hansen:

Yeah.

Linda Ugelow:

We have a comment from Shay that says it feels like a point of mental health preservation to not have these conversations, especially if I'm gathering that the conversation won't lead anywhere productive. Any thoughts about that?

Liane Davey:

Yeah. Let me just say, you know, I think you do have to have boundaries and know yourself and know what will be threatening to your physical or mental health and just say, it's not worth it. I can't right now. But I think, you know, if you can, if you're having a day where you're feeling on top of the wave or things like that, maybe what Heather and I can help you think about is, are there ways to have conversations around the edges that maintain Some sense of connection. So hopefully by the end of the time, you come away saying, okay, there's places I can't go. Choose not to go. I'm better off not going. But, you know, those are a couple of things I can imagine myself broaching in a way that feels safe enough to try.

Liane Davey:

So, yeah.

Linda Ugelow:

Yeah. And then Heather, let's. I'm gonna ask you to, like, respond to this next one. She also asks, how might someone preface the conversation to either gauge the safety of having the conversation or establishing guidelines, boundaries around the conversation?

Heather Hansen:

Well, I. I think that we need to understand. Shay's other comments said, going anywhere productive. I think the question becomes, what do you want to produce? Right. Because if you want, as Leandra said, if you want further connections, then you preface the conversation by saying, I'm not going to persuade you to think the way that I do. You're not going to persuade me to think the way that you do. But I would love to see if we can find some. Some common ground or just some understanding for one another to create a bigger connection.

Heather Hansen:

If you set that out from the very beginning. You know, in my second book, I talk about, the enemy in the courtroom was never the other side. The enemy was confusion. And here I think the enemy is disconnection. The enemy is separation. And so if your goal is that you want to produce connection, that's a different thing than produce a changed mind or produce a win. And the communication and the boundaries are in. The guidelines are different in all of those settings.

Heather Hansen:

So if we can create, first of all, a shared mind on where we want to go with this conversation, I think the rest of it gets a whole lot easier.

Linda Ugelow:

Great.

Liane Davey:

And, you know, I think Heather's onto the, like, the most important point. The worst thing for our society is not disagreeing on fundamental policy issues. That's what a healthy democracy is all about. The worst thing is we stop engaging about what are healthy decisions for our communities. So, you know, I think having connection as the goal is a wonderful goal. Let's make sure we stay connected, because although we may disagree on this area, we need to make sure that we have the basis of a dialogue when the next very important thing facing our community comes up.

Linda Ugelow:

That's right. Yeah. Yep. So, Shay, I want to thank you for all your comments here. This is great. Your next one is the. You put in context for anywhere productive. I've had the conversations before, but the relationships ultimately faded afterwards since we each felt we would be censoring ourselves around one another.

Linda Ugelow:

Yeah. And I can see that as, you know, like, the, the fear of what might happen if I brought something up, that people won't feel like they want to be around me. That's what I was saying also earlier that would I lose friends because they feel like I'm not one of them anymore or.

Liane Davey:

Yeah, it's really hard because then you quickly go to. If somebody can't stay connected to you or chooses not to stay connected to you, or you choose not to stay connected to them because of something fundamental to who you are, Is that love? Is that friendship? Is that anything worth protecting? Or is it better to value honor, what that relationship was or can still be, and then, you know, find that closeness and connection from places where. And I think that's the hard thing right now is I think we've. We've swung the pendulum to unfriending everybody and, and that's a risk. So. But I think you have to ask that question in each case. Really assess that.

Linda Ugelow:

Liane, I want. I'm sorry, Heather. I want to, like, move.

Liane Davey:

Yeah, of course.

Linda Ugelow:

Do, do you want to. Do you want, like. No, no, no.

Heather Hansen:

It'll come up. It'll come up.

Linda Ugelow:

Okay, good. Okay. So, so, Liane, I mean, you and I talked about, you know, the good fight in on teams. How, what are, what do you see as the parallels between, like, having that good fight on teams and, and this as a good fight to have or, or, or how do you feel? Can you, can you, can you lay it out for us? Like, what does it look like on a team and how might it look like?

Liane Davey:

So I would differentiate between, in conflict, there is healthy conflict and unhealthy conflict. I talk about, and use the metaphor for healthy conflict is that it's like tension. So it's very uncomfortable, but it's like yoga uncomfortable. Like, oh, my God, I'm not sure my body goes. So it's very uncomfortable. But you know, afterward you're going to be stronger, better, more agile, versus friction, which is like a blister. And nothing is good about a blister. It just wears you down and slows you down.

Liane Davey:

So same in our communities, in our society, there is very productive tension. You know, how pro business do we want to be? That's a very, very healthy tension around. We know it creates economic prosperity and makes jobs and meaningful things. And we know that unregulated, maybe it can swing to like, that's a good tension. We, we better always be in that tension when it switches to friction, which is its personal. It's name calling. It's not evidence based, those sorts of things, then that's very unhealthy. It's exactly the same whether we're talking about a team and an organization or we're talking about, we're talking about your community.

Liane Davey:

If you think about it, sales and operations in a corporate environment should, should always be in tension with one another. I always say if sales and operations are not fighting, sell your shares because there's not going to be anything fueling progress in this company. Well, same. It's absolutely wonderful that we are thinking all the time about, you know, how we raise the tide, lift all boats in our society and, and then, you know, how do we make sure no one gets left. Those are tensions that should always be there. So, you know, it's exactly the same model. There's really good conflict tensions that we don't even want them to go away. They should always stay.

Liane Davey:

And then there's friction. That means we, we hurt each other, we don't listen, we don't get anywhere, we go backwards. So. Yeah, I think it's exactly the same thing.

Heather Hansen:

Yeah.

Linda Ugelow:

Did you want to add something to that, Heather?

Heather Hansen:

No, I mean, I couldn't. Liane is the voice on that topic and I think it's, I think she's so right. It is, but the macro is micro and vice versa.

Linda Ugelow:

Yeah, yeah. And I really appreciate that because as I'm listening to you say that in this context, it makes me feel like this sense of welcoming the different perspectives rather than be afraid of them. Now what if like right now there are people who feel really afraid of the other side, that it's like it's going to be the end of democracy as we know it, or, or you know, this whole thing, like, how do we, how, how might, like, is it still the same process? Like we go into a conversation. Let's, let's build it up so we, we decide we want to have a conversation with somebody or maybe with a couple of people, and we say to them, hey, I really am interested in trying out this idea of building bridges or crossing the divide. And I'm wondering if you'd be open to exploring this idea with me where we just share our perspectives. Not to persuade or change each other's mind, but just to practice how it could be for us to hear each other and listen and appreciate where one of another is coming from. Is there anything you would add to that?

Heather Hansen:

I would just say that I would start that conversation with questions about the other person's perspective. I think that when we, the assumption may be that I'M going to have this conversation and start spewing out my perspectives. And I want to have this conversation so that we can share perspectives. And here are mine. And I think that the. I love questions, right? I talk about them in both of my books. As a trial attorney, it's really important to note the way I won cases, all I did was ask questions. The opening statement is a little short period of time.

Heather Hansen:

The closing argument is a little short period of time. The entire trial, all I did was ask questions. And you can ask questions to challenge and to embarrass even, and also to build connections and to build credibility. And so I would start these conversations, I do start these conversations with questions about what do you believe? Tell me about that. What is your experience? What led to that belief? Did you know about this? Had you read about this? Where am I wrong? I think that that kind of wonder and curiosity starts the conversation with the other person feeling safe. You know, if that psychological safety that Liane talks about in her book and Amy Edmondson is sort of the godmother of all of this. But I think that if you start with honestly curious questions, don't start cross examining at first. As you grow in your psychological safety, maybe you can start cross examining some of those ideas, but really with wonder saying, tell me more about why you believe that.

Heather Hansen:

Tell me more about where that idea first started for you. The only other thing that I would add to this is I once heard President Obama talk about the divide between the sides. And he said that it used to be that we as Americans believed that the other side wanted what was best for the country and just thought that they had another way of getting there. And that has seemed to have shifted that now we want to believe, or we tend to believe that the other side doesn't want what's best for the country. And I just don't think that's true. I think that exploring with questions, you start to at least get the sense that the person who you think you disagree with does want what's best for our children and our communities and they just have a different way of getting there. And that might be the first meeting of the hearts.

Liane Davey:

Yeah, absolutely. I, I really, I do think there are, you know, a few nefarious creatures around, but like, that's maybe a dozen. Like we're trying to. So, right. You have 350 million who want what's best and just have different perceptions of that. I talk about it in a bit of a silly way, as is my want. I talk about it as when the Dragon is breathing fire, it's because they're protecting treasure. And unfortunately, what we do most of the time when the dragon starts breathing fire is we start building a wall of facts in between us, and it's just one brick and the next.

Liane Davey:

And if you've been on, you know, Facebook in the last five years or whatever you saw, you know, Covid mask was a great version of this. Like, somebody, like, put into the comments, like, this whole scientific study about COVID being aerosol. I'm like, that's an excellent Facebook comment. Then somebody else would come back with a story of their grandmother who was wearing a mask and this and that, and got it. You just be like, there. There is no understanding here. So. So what I say is exactly what Heather's saying.

Liane Davey:

I just say it in a sillier way, which is what you need them to do is open the drawbridge and let you in, right? And so you can figure out what the treasure is for them. And those questions Heather's talking about, those bit and her examples were amazing. Those big, what's at stake for you here? How do you see this playing out? What is this? You know, we're talking about some piece of legislation or policy, but what's it about for you? What's underneath all of those questions? As they answer, they project what they value and what they believe. They start to lead you, if you follow, to their treasure. That's what it's about. So one of the. My favorite lines from the Good Fight is facts don't solve fights. And we're trying to.

Linda Ugelow:

Facts don't solve fights.

Liane Davey:

Fights don't solve fights. And we're trying to throw evidence and facts at one another. And we're not getting people to open the drawbridge and take us to the things they value and believe and the things they would protect with fire. And I think that's a lot of what's going on right now. People are fiercely protecting and defending things they care deeply about, and it feels like a pitch battle right now.

Linda Ugelow:

So I know that we've already covered this, but now that we're kind of like in this feeling of the pitch battle, the kind of, like the misinformation and arguing over what's misinformation and what's real. The. The solution to that or the alternative to that is going back to what you. Both of you were saying earlier of what. What about this? Do you, you know, do you feel so strongly about what. Where did you know? Do you have a story that goes, you know, where did you come to this from, you know, how has this impacted your life? Would it also be worthwhile to say what are you most afraid of?

Heather Hansen:

Yeah. With the right person. Right. Some people, yes. You have to know your jury. I always say that, but, yeah, I mean, I think as Liane was talking, it's like the dragon is protecting the treasure because it's afraid you're going to steal it. Right. I think that on both sides, I have family members who are on either side of some of these divides.

Heather Hansen:

Right. And I am, for 25 years of being in the courtroom, I think that I am really good at sort of seeing both sides. And so I can have these conversations without getting too sort of activated. And what I see is both sides are afraid. They're just afraid of different things for different reasons. But they are, they have.

Liane Davey:

But good reasons.

Heather Hansen:

They have. They have good reasons. And so. And certainly good reasons to them. And so if you start to see, oh, they're just afraid, it makes it a little bit, you know, it doesn't mean that they're right. It doesn't mean that you're ever going to think they're right. It doesn't mean that they've persuaded you. But it might.

Heather Hansen:

I mean, to get back to your point, Linda, open your heart a little to where they're coming from.

Linda Ugelow:

Now, are there only two sides?

Liane Davey:

No.

Heather Hansen:

No.

Linda Ugelow:

And is that important for us to recognize or is that irrelevant?

Liane Davey:

I think the problem in a lot of the discourse in the US is it's been made to look like there are only two sides. What we're, what we feel like we're losing is the middle. And I think the, you know, with the, you know, propagation of the MSNBC and the Fox News and that, like, we've polarized so much, I think what we're missing is that the vast majority of people, even if you take the most contentious hot button issues, abortion or things like that, the vast majority of people are in the middle. Right. And so, you know, I, I think even just characterizing it as sides is doing us in, because it's, it's like everything else. It's a continuum. And why are we not having conversations about where we are on the continuum? Because as soon as we draw a line, we're on one. It's George Bush, you're with us, or you're against us.

Liane Davey:

If we say this is a continuum of beliefs about regulation or climate or whatever else. Okay, I'd love to understand where you are on that. And as Heather was saying, you know, what experiences you've had that got you there, what you. And on and on. So, yeah, I think if we could get away from thinking about this as two dichotomous sides, we would be able to have better conversations.

Heather Hansen:

Yeah. The unfortunate thing about where we are right now in time is that we are there. In the United States, there's two parties, Right. So there is two sides. I mean, there's some third party candidates, but it really is a two side thing that's very unusual. And in real life, you know, that's. In real life, there's not a lot of places where there's two sides and a winner and a loser and it's very public and unfortunately it's with who's going to be at least in name, the leader. And so that's a, There's a lot at stake.

Heather Hansen:

But in our day to day lives with these conversations, there's not two sides. And I think that, I mean, I don't know what the numbers are on this. I would love to know if there's, if there's a study that tells us. I think most people don't agree with everything that their candidate says on any one. On all the topics. You know, we are a continuum, thank goodness. But it feels a little bit to many people right now, it does feel.

Liane Davey:

Like there are two sides.

Heather Hansen:

Yeah.

Liane Davey:

So I think, you know, even using that as a. I know that on November, whatever, that you're gonna have to pick one box or the other. But, you know, I would love you and I to understand what can't be, what can't be seen by that one box or another. I'd love to know where you are in between the boxes. Right. And those sorts of things, like even use that, you know, like you can only put one bumper sticker on your car. But I can understand how you feel about these various issues with more nuance. I'd love to hear.

Liane Davey:

What a great way to start the conversation. Right. Like I know what bumper stickers on your car and which one's on mine, but I don't know anything beyond that. And I would love to know, you know, beyond that, I'd love to bring.

Linda Ugelow:

Up the, this idea of misinformation because I feel like we live in these silos on social media. We get our, our information from silos, you know, from one, you know, kind of source or another which has a, a slant. And so some people might have a fear that comes up that's based on something that maybe not be true. Like in this conversation that we're, we're, this hypothetical conversation that we're trying to create. How is that something that we ever, at some point, bring in? Or do we leave that for? Like, how, how might we address that? If someone says something, you know, like, and you think, no, I don't think that person has said that. Like, do we bring that in or do we not go there?

Heather Hansen:

Depends on your goal. Like, if you want to persuade. I think that once you start saying that's not true, you're getting to persuasion. Right? So I have an interesting perspective on this because in the courtroom, I saw every single person raise their hand and swear to tell the truth and then tell different stories, and the truth became what the jury decided was true. And they told those stories based on all of the same evidence, the same facts. And so I think that if you get into the, the mud of that's not true, you're starting to argue and not have a conversation. I think that, you know, and so it depends on what that's why, you know, at the beginning, I said, what are we trying. What's the goal of this conversation? Because if it's to persuade, then, yeah, you want to whip out your evidence and talk about why it is what you say it is and all of those things, and then have fact checkers and then have some people say the fact checkers are not, you know, and it can get really complicated.

Heather Hansen:

But.

Liane Davey:

And it won't work. Right. Like, 95% of the time that's not going to work. How, how often have you ever done that? Whipped out, like a cord is different.

Linda Ugelow:

But.

Liane Davey:

But how often have you ever whipped out all your facts to prove someone why they're so wrong and had them been like, you're right, I'm so wrong?

Heather Hansen:

Never.

Liane Davey:

Like, it's not how humans work. So if your goal is to convince, I still encourage you to do what Heather and I are saying and ignore. Like, don't put another brick in the wall. Ask another really good question. What do you think, what do you think are their motives in. In claiming that that's true? Or what do you think their motives are in spreading. I wouldn't say claiming. What do you think their motives are in sharing that piece of information? Right.

Liane Davey:

Get them thinking, you know, again, you're not challenging it. You're not convincing because it's not going to work. You know, you, you have to try and understand it from, you know, how have you chosen what news outlets you cover? Why does one make you feel more understood than another? How does it feel when you watch this channel or read this paper versus, like, understand them? You are Much more likely to open their minds and their hearts doing that than more bricks of facts in the wall.

Heather Hansen:

Yeah, there's good research to support that. You can change minds, but it takes curiosity and patience. It's not going to happen in one conversation. It is, you know, asking people about their perspective, telling them a story about someone that they can relate to. You know, it is in the patient's piece is huge.

Liane Davey:

But that's a really good one because of course, the research tells us that, you know, people can hold one perspective about a. A sort of a group in society that is very. And I remember my dad who was born in 1929 and like, just the way he would talk about. He used to always use the expression homosexuals, which made me laugh every time, like, dad, okay, please. But, like, how he thought about the group was very different than how he thought about Chris. Oh, Chris is amazing. Okay. And so that is another secret that Heather's catching on there.

Liane Davey:

Talking about real people. It's why communities that have more diversity and things like that have less prejudice because as humans, when we know. I know one, whatever, one of whatever, it's a very different thing than when it's a they that we can other because we don't know them. We don't know that they put their pants on one leg at a time like us, that. That they care about their children's futures like we do, yada yada. Right. So, you know, getting to single personal anecdotal, which, you know, Heather and I, as a lawyer and a psychologist, we're all about evidence. And it, it's painful to say it, but anecdote works way better.

Liane Davey:

Much, much better than. Than this sort of nameless, faceless facts.

Linda Ugelow:

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So I'm wondering, like, do you feel like we have what we need to go into a conversation? How would we go about, like, let's say I or someone else listening hypothetically want to.

Liane Davey:

I have a friend.

Linda Ugelow:

Yeah, I have a speaking. Asking for a friend. We want to, like, try out this experience. Just even to try out the experience. What would it be like? What would you suggest in terms of trying it out? Doing it with one person, doing it in a trio, a small group. What do you think like, and how might we, like, choose our speaking partners?

Heather Hansen:

I mean, I think it depends on the scenario. I think one on one is often, often easier than a group because you may get two on one, which is never going to do well. My mom would never let me have play groups of three because she said it's always two against one during the little arguments that you have. I think the best preparation, Linda, and you know this better than anyone, you know, I love talking about tone of voice because there's that study out of VL that says that you can tell more about a person's emotions from their tone of voice than their facial expressions and their body language combined. And I talk about that a lot because you can't fake your tone of voice. And so my idea on this is your best preparation is getting yourself to a place where you feel calm and grounded and deliberate and intentional about. I'm having this conversation. There's no threat to me here.

Heather Hansen:

I know what I believe. I'm grounded in my beliefs. I'm going to do what I do on November 5th. Like, that is all fine. I'm going into this conversation with curiosity, with wonderful, with interest, with love, with, like, any number of things that will be reflected in my voice. But if I go in with the littlest bit of doubt, resentment, fear, bitterness, wanting to win or wanting to be right, the other person will sense it. And then whether it's 2 or 5 or 10, it's not going to go as well. So I think the work to be done is on us feeling I am safe.

Heather Hansen:

I, you know, I got certified in hypnosis this summer, and one of the things we often say is, I am safe, I am calm. I choose to be here. And that's something that I would say before I go into that conversation. I am safe. I am calm. I choose to be here. I'll just add one more thing. Liz Gilbert has a line that I love, and it's a relaxed woman is the most powerful person in the room.

Heather Hansen:

And so you could say, relaxed, man. But if you can go into these conversations relaxed, I mean, I think you're really going in at an advantage.

Liane Davey:

Yeah, absolutely. And go in knowing what you're fighting for. And remember, you're fighting for connection. You're not fighting for your side in the argument. Right. If you go in fighting for your side in the argument, you've lost before you've begun. So if you go in saying, I am fighting for connection, I'm fighting for a relationship here that I value, I'm fighting for a community I want to be a part of, then all of my behavior will be in defense of that, as opposed to in defense of a policy or a candidate. So I think if you can be, you know, energized by this is worth fighting for, connection is worth fighting for, community, is worth fighting for, then I think you'll you'll go in from the right mindset.

Liane Davey:

Yeah, I'm just imagining the relaxed woman. I'm like, goodness, those are hard.

Heather Hansen:

You know, I.

Linda Ugelow:

And I think that there. There's something. So this is what I'm thinking, actually. I mean, you guys are giving me some great ideas. I'm actually thinking of. I don't know if I'll get any takers, but I'm thinking of like setting up some kind of a group where. And I would pick a certain number or people would volunteer, you know, show up who are either identifying on one. One side or one side or the other, or independent.

Linda Ugelow:

And I would like to have it be a trio that. Because I think it would be great if there could be, you know, show that there are. There's more than two sides even. Like, it makes it clear that there's more than two sides. And. And maybe kind of like have guidelines and breakout rooms for. I don't know if it would be nine people or 12 or a group of threes or maybe just. It'll just be one group of three that I trial first.

Linda Ugelow:

But I think I'm going. I mean, now I feel like we've got the intention of. What are we fighting for? We're fighting for connection. What, What. It's not about persuasion. It's about connection and asking questions and not going in there to, you know, be first and foremost when I tell your story, but ask people about other stories. So of course, you know, someone has to start, but we can figure that out. And empathy.

Linda Ugelow:

And empathy.

Liane Davey:

Fear.

Linda Ugelow:

Yes.

Liane Davey:

You get much more quickly to empathy. Like, wow. To think that a way of life is at risk. That must be alarming. That. That would be really hard to feel that your way of life, maybe a way of life that's been part of your family for generations, maybe that's connected to your religion or to your community or to your way of making a living or whatever. Like, wow. When you realize that it's fear that the dragon is protecting treasure, you become much more empathetic.

Liane Davey:

Empathetic.

Linda Ugelow:

Yes.

Liane Davey:

Wow. That would be hard to have to walk around the world with that empathy is going to take you good places. Because even people who are advocating for. So you know that quote about kids, like the. The neediest kids ask for help in the worst ways. Or it's. It's a line like that. When I understood that and understood that a kid acting out is a kid who is in fear.

Liane Davey:

And so think about it the exact same way. This person spitting nasty, hateful lies.

Linda Ugelow:

Wow.

Liane Davey:

They must be in A lot of fear, and that the fear is commensurate with the stuff that's coming out. Wow. And that empathy is going to be super helpful in that conversation.

Linda Ugelow:

Yeah, I like that. I also feel like another thing that we could do, which is something that I feel helps all my speaking confidence, students and clients, is the power of positive regard. So I could see as a possible recipe for conversation that after someone speaks, that the other people share something that they really liked and appreciated about what they said.

Heather Hansen:

Yeah. Yeah. I think that that's. I think that's a phenomenal thing, especially in this setting, because it makes the other person feel heard, heard and affirmed, you know, and understood.

Liane Davey:

It's.

Heather Hansen:

I think that that would be great.

Liane Davey:

Validation is a key skill in. In the method that I teach. And we invalidate people in many more ways than we know. Right. So we invalidate them by contradicting them. That's kind of the obvious. But we can also invalidate just by. By not saying anything after they talk, so they don't know if their point landed.

Liane Davey:

We invalidate people by dropping our eye contact. That's a very insidious way. So, yeah, when we actively choose to validate them, we start to say, okay, we're. We're talking about a hard thing as allies from the same side of the table here.

Heather Hansen:

Yeah.

Linda Ugelow:

Yep. Yep. Okay. So I love that we talked about how people can prepare by know. Thinking about what. I'm gonna have to go back and. And, like, take notes on everything that we talk because we covered a lot of material here. I'm wondering, what have we.

Linda Ugelow:

What are we missing? What. What didn't we cover? What do you think people need to know? Or how can we inspire people to, like, try this out?

Liane Davey:

Maybe we. We need to go back to Shay's comments in terms of, you know, there are points at which to bail. Right. Like how to know for yourself when it's time to withdraw from the conversation, when it's not, on balance, worth the connection, to endure something that is causing you to question yourself or feel unsafe or. So I think we should circle back to what Shay was saying, is that, you know, it's okay to sometimes, if you've been courageous, if you've done all these things to say, it's not the right time, it's not the right place, this isn't the right person. It's okay to sometimes say, like, you aren't letting yourself down. You aren't letting the community down. You've made an honest effort.

Liane Davey:

It's okay sometimes to say, I Got to call this one yes.

Linda Ugelow:

So, and let's say something. You get to. That you feel someone says something that's not part of the rules, it's outside the rules, and you feel either attacked or, or, or someone's trying to persuade you or whatever. What could someone say in the moment that calls that out in a way to get it back on track?

Heather Hansen:

I mean, I think it's hard to say out of context, but I would say something like, I don't think that this is productive. I don't know that this conversation is productive. I don't know that we're getting anywhere with this. Let's move on to a different topic. I mean, I think that that's the best I can offer in a vacuum.

Liane Davey:

Yeah, I think. And you could also take those comments and just personalize them because the other person may be feeling like, this is great, but I'm not feeling like this is productive. I don't know where to go with this. You know, I, I notice myself retreating as, you know, I, I. Your Vol. You can do feedback. Right. So the, the volume is going up now or your volume is going up.

Liane Davey:

And now I feel myself leaning back from the conversation. You know, do we want to reset? Are, Are you good to reset it or, you know, or should we back away from the conversation, like to personalize it? So you're not, you're not trying to impose how. What they think or feel, but that you're being candid about how their behavior is impacting you. Yeah.

Linda Ugelow:

And is that the kind of thing, let's say, when you're working with a team, that you would. Are there any other lines that you might suggest to people use to reset?

Liane Davey:

Maybe. Maybe one I'll share. So if somebody gets very emotional, so that may be. They start to cry, which would probably be me in this conversation because I'm a crier, but. Or they start to yell. The, the line I use every time is, this is important. What do I need to understand? Because somebody yelling at you, you know, is usually yelling because they, to Heather's point earlier, don't feel heard or understood. They.

Liane Davey:

They have lost the ability to make their point calmly. They don't think that approach is working. And so they are trying another approach that's probably worked for them with many other people. They can bully other people into acquiescing or just shutting up. So in that situation, if it feels safe enough, if you can, I would say, respond to the yelling person with, okay, this is important. What do I need to understand? And it's really hard to keep yelling when the person is saying, I want to hear this thing that's this treasure that's so important to you that you are breathing fire, burning everything down. So that line is one of the lines I use all the time. And whether someone's crying and they say it or they're frustrated or they're angry or whatever it is, it tends to.

Liane Davey:

It doesn't tell them how they're feeling. So what I really don't want anyone to say is, I see you're getting upset or don't get upset. That's terrible. Don't do that. But do say, this is important because it's important to you, and ask, what do you need to understand? What are you not getting?

Linda Ugelow:

Yeah. Yeah, I like that, Heather.

Heather Hansen:

I think that's great. I think the only thing that I would add to the conversation is the next day we all have to wake up and live our lives and build our country and work together and do our thing. And so. And. And ultimately, especially in our small communities, the leader. It does not have the impact that sometimes we think that that person does. And the impact is really on the ground with the way that we treat each other in our day to Day, the November 6th and beyond. And so remembering that and not letting those connections be broken because of these conversations, which really, at the end of the day, you're not going to persuade someone to vote differently, probably.

Heather Hansen:

And so the connection is, you know, to Liane's point, that is what you're defending and for really good reason. So that for the next four years, no matter what happens, we can work together to build better. We have a lot of work to do to build a better community and better places.

Liane Davey:

Yeah. I would say November 6th, like, it is the day to be doing the things to just make eye contact with people, smile and just say, here we are today, still neighbors. Let's go. Yeah. Yeah. I'm still happy to carpool your kid to soccer. Right, Right.

Linda Ugelow:

Yeah. So underlying. Underlying a commitment. I had a vision, as you were. Both of you were speaking of just seeing kind of people linked in arms and saying, we disagree and we're proud of it.

Heather Hansen:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't know that we'll get there anytime soon. In the next month or so.

Liane Davey:

Small pockets.

Heather Hansen:

Yeah, it is possible. I mean, I disagree with lots of people who I get along with fine. You know, we don't.

Liane Davey:

It's.

Heather Hansen:

It is.

Liane Davey:

If James Carville can be married to Mary Matlin, what more does the world need to know?

Heather Hansen:

That's right. It's true.

Liane Davey:

It's true. And for like, 40 years or however long they've been married.

Heather Hansen:

Yeah, yeah. It is possible, but it's slow and it takes patience and it's not easy, but worthwhile. Oh, for sure.

Linda Ugelow:

So I guess I want to come back to the why. Like, why should we bother doing this? What are we going to get from it?

Heather Hansen:

We're going to get a better country. November 6th forward. We have got to interact with one another. We cannot have, like, segregated neighborhoods, communities. We can't. It's just not. It's just not feasible. It's the way that communities grow and thrive and prosper is for people to work together.

Heather Hansen:

And you can't work together without communicating.

Liane Davey:

I think the other thing we get is when we know that we have it in us to have the hard conversation. So when I help people learn to have conflict productively, just watching them sort of sit up straighter and know that just that internal sense of confidence that comes from. I can go through the crucible and come out the other side. It's amazing how empowering it is to know because you may be working on it in your community or with your neighbor, but then all of a sudden it's like, you know how to advocate for yourself with your boss or. Right. Like, it's amazing how this skill. The other thing I say all the time, and this was a bonus chapter in the Good Fight, was you model to your children and to your nieces and nephews and like all the. The next generation, you model to them something.

Liane Davey:

What a gift to model that. That's how we do it. So, you know, both. You get a better community, better country. That's really awesome. But even if the country is not one I owe to different, other than your 1,350 millionth of it, you are better, you are more confident, and that's going to serve you well in so many different domains.

Linda Ugelow:

Well, I think this is a great place to end this conversation. This has been wonderful, and I feel. I feel inspired, I feel hopeful. I feel like I want to take some action. And I hope that the people who listen to this on the podcast or who have come in on the live stream also have a sense of, yeah, maybe I'll try this out. I'd like to try this out because, I mean, this is our human potential, isn't it? Why stay fixed and where we've been when we can expand into a fuller part of ourselves? So let's do this. Let's do this. Let's see if we can be brave and have a courageous conversation with.

Linda Ugelow:

With someone or some people sometime in the next month or beyond, whatever, whenever you can get to it. Because it's not like these things are going away. Yeah, let's see how we can take some of these tools and see how it goes and knows no. And if you have any questions about it, like leave a comment or reach out to one of us, ask a question, let us know how it goes. If you feel inspired to start your own movement around this, let us know. So we can, you know, shout it out and we can promote it, because it's not going to come from this one podcast and there are other people and other organizations doing the work as well. But I think as much as we can begin to even bring this idea of, yeah, this is possible and it's worthwhile file that we're going to create a society that we all want to live in more.

Liane Davey:

That we deserve. Right?

Linda Ugelow:

That we deserve. Exactly. Thank you so much. So, Liane, Heather, I'm just, again, so grateful that you're on and. And perhaps maybe after the elections, we will do a. I don't know, something else and. And see how we can nudge things along.

Heather Hansen:

Sounds great.

Liane Davey:

Amazing.

Linda Ugelow:

Take care, everybody.

Heather Hansen:

Bye, guys.

Liane Davey:

Bye.

Linda Ugelow:

Thank you for listening to Delight in the Limelight. I hope you feel a little more hopeful and excited about speaking in public. If you like the show, recommend it to someone you know. And if you haven't yet read the book Delight in the Limelight, you can get it online or at your favorite bookstore or request it from your local library. Remember, speaking is our human design. Let's learn to delight in it together.